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Tell me this isn't head gaskets ...

19K views 91 replies 14 participants last post by  blkgolfer1 
#1 ·
I have a sinking feeling. These are the symptoms:

  • big cloud of white exhaust when pulling away from stop at WOT. I mean big. Can't see out the back window big.
  • had the coolant changed recently as part of 60,000 mile service. Afterwards they had to top it up twice in a couple of days as the expansion tank was empty and the temp gauge moved above halfway in normal driving. It seems OK now, but
  • coolant is dark and murky looking and
  • gurgling noises in the heater core that keep coming back with
  • inconsistent heater performance (gets cold after a while)
My last car was an H6 Outback I bought because everyone said the H6 was not prone to head gasket failures like the H4 was. Guess what, I got stuck with bad head gaskets on that one. Please, not again ...
 
#53 ·
I just heard from them again. They are now saying is is "probably" radiator flow issues and want to replace the radiator, which would not be covered by the warranty ... and they will not guarantee that this will fix the problem.

Time to go car shopping, I think.
 
#57 ·
I don't know how things work in the Great White North, but I've heard - anecdotally - about situations in the US where the dealer - whether deliberately or negligently - simply fixed the symptoms while under warranty, but failed to fix the actual problem.... when the unfixed problem led to other problems after the warranty expired, the dealer/mfg rejected the warranty claim.

If the HG fails to the point where it's obvious to everyone after your warrant expires, you very well may be able to get it fixed under the warranty because you have a paper trail of previous work that didn't fix it to begin with, but the last thing you want is your failing HG leading to warped heads (or worse) outside of the warranty period because, while you can substantiate that you had HG problems inside the warranty period, you can't substantiate when the heads (or whatever else) failed since one failure is not definitive proof that the other failed prior to or at the same time (even though they probably do). Also get something in writing regarding the aftermarket radiator being "approved repair"... using non-OEM parts on a repair under warranty can void the warranty; I don't want to be the conspiracy theorist here, but if the dealer knows you have an HG problem and simply doesn't want to repair it under warranty, you don't want him - knowingly or not - voiding the warranty on you by offering to do something else that seems like it might solve the problem.

Get your HGs replaced. Get Subaru involved. If it's under warranty, then you are entitled to a complete repair of whatever the problem is. Even if the dealer can't ascertain what the problem is, the onus is on them to figure it out, not you.

I know that asking a Canadian to give somebody else hell is a tall order, but you deserve this... don't let the dealer screw you. He's not your buddy, friend.
 
#58 · (Edited)
just read your whole story. i have a 2006 subaru b9 tribeca, well actually it is my mothers. we have had problems with this car for a long time. mostly over heating problems. your story sounds very similar to ours. it first started out with the car leaking and consuming coolant. then her thermostat went. we replaced that and it seemed to fix the issue until she over heated again. we then had the o2 censer and throttle body, which seemed to work for a little while. then one day on the way home she over heated it to the point where the lower radiator hose blew off from the engine. we towed it home and put it back on but it ran like crap, puffing out white smoke and the coolant smelled like gas. so, she had it and that weekend she bought a new car and it has sat in the back yard for a year. This year i wanted to fix it so i had an estimate on how much money it would cost to put in a new engine. turns out it was for $6500. That was way too much. we decided that we would make more money by parting it out. Then just to see what would happen after a year of sitting i jumped it and it started right up. i believe it is definitely the head gaskets. so now i gave it to a local shop and it has been there for a couple of weeks. they say it ail be $2500 to fix. which is fine, if it really is the head gaskets. it is still there now and I'm waiting to see what happens. ill keep this forum updated. today is 7/17/14
 
#60 ·
I guess it is my turn to update! It took them some time to get the rad (Subie parts always seem to take forever to get around here) and schedule the work, but it finally went in on the 11th (last Fri). They pulled the old rad before realizing the new one was the wrong one, so it sat all weekend until the right one came and was put in on Monday. As I drove off the lot the temp gauge went one segment above normal, so I drove it right back again!

The salesman I bought it from happened to be there and saw the problem, then summoned the service manager, who brought one of the techs. By then it had come down again. In a past conversations the service manager both there and at the main dealer have said they suspected head gaskets, but could not prove it. Now the tech said he suspects a cracked head, but again cannot prove it.

Anyway, I drove it to work and back on Tue and Wed and it did not improve, with the temp going up by a segment while climbing hills on my commute then coming down after it levelled off, which I had not been seeing before, and it not consistent with the previous problem where it was overheating after climbing a hill, not during. Also, the level in the expansion tank is now unchanging, hot or cold, and the rad does not seem to be full, so they have it back today to look into what is going on. Whether any of these things have anything to do with the original problem or just the latest work they did is not yet clear.

At this point they have exhausted the easiest options, so now they have to face the not so easy ones. The local guys have been contacting Subaru's head office for tech advice, but so far they have offered no solution.

One question does occur to me, though: I have seen a couple of posts where people say replacing the throttle body gasket has cured their overheating issues. The symptoms were not exactly what I am seeing, but might it be worth a shot? But how does that cure overheating?
 
#62 ·
I've seen the throttle body gasket thing too, and I can say that, having myself taken apart the EZ30D, I just cannot see how this would cause persistent overheating issues of the nature which you're experiencing.

The only negative I see in a bad T-body gasket is that it allows more air into the chamber, thus creating a leaner mixture. Because lean mixtures burn hotter, this will raise your coolant temps... but in a properly bled system that's overheating at idle but is otherwise fine at speed, if your t-body gasket is the problem, revving the engine while stopped will not bring the temp gauge back to normal, it would drive the temp gauge higher IMO.
 
#63 ·
I mentioned this to a friend of mine who is a Subaru tech and he said there was air in the cooling system somewhere. He mentioned an air bleed where the heater hoses are at the firewall. It takes a stubby phillips from the drivers side to loosen the screw in what looks like a plastic T. When I went looking for an air bleed I didn't see anything that was obviously what I pictured an air bleed being, but I suspected it had to be that T. He showed me the next day how it functioned. I would remove that screw and bleed the system there as well.
 
#64 ·
Thanks for the input. I just got off the phone with the local guys. They are completely stumped. They had it the last two days and they have flushed and bled the system (again), pressure tested it (passed with flying colours). When they drive it they see the exact same symptoms I do, which is something, but they cannot figure out why. I get it back for the weekend, but they want it back again on Monday to keep on poking. Sigh.
 
#65 ·
Latest update. Over the weekend it was worse than ever, going up 2 segments on the gauge just driving around locally, which I never saw before they swapped the rad. The pattern seemed to be that it would rise after slowly down from highway driving, and fall again if I accelerated, somewhat like I was seeing on the big hill climb but now happening without the hill! This is what the rad swap was supposed to fix ...

Anyway, they have had it back since Monday, and late yesterday I finally got a call from them. They are able to see the symptoms I have been seeing (hard to miss), and are still stumped, but they have finally decided to pull the heads. I should know next week what they find.

Looking at my calendar, they have now have the car for basically 4 of the last 6 weeks chasing this problem. I am getting really tired of this. I hope they finally have the answer.
 
#66 ·
Keep us updated.

100 to 1 they come back and tell you that the HG's look fine (to cover their own behind) but your heads are now warped. It's pretty obviously that you've had a bad HG to begin with... the white smoke screen you mentioned in post #1 is impossible to rationalize, and the fact that it's gone away only leads me to conclude that whatever was causing it to begin with has only rectified itself by creating a new problem (in this case, warping of the heads). When I changed my HGs, I couldn't see anything on the HGs, heads or block surfaces to indicate a breach of combustion gasses, which really stumped me because I thought it would be obvious. But four months and 8,000 miles later, I can say unequivocally that new HGs and resurfaced heads was a 100% fix for my symptoms (all of which were similar to yours, except the smoke screen).

It didn't occur to me until about a month later that the breach may not have been between HG and aluminum... the HGs are multi-layer. Fortunately, I kept the old HGs in my garage, so I went and pulled the layers apart, and eureka... discoloration (the type that comes from temperature, no less) in several areas. The combustion gasses had escaped to the coolant passages between the layers of the HG, not between the HG and head/block. In Feb/Mar, I thought the Subaru Coolant Conditioner may have fixed my issue because the symptoms nearly disappeared, but what was probably going on was that my heads had already started to warp, and that the "escape routes" from cylinder to cooling were shifting as my heads continued to warp, giving me the impression that things were getting better at one point (when in fact the opposite was occurring).

Any way... just my 0.02. Fortunately for you, you've still got a warranty.
 
#67 ·
Aaaand still waiting. They said last week I should have it back by now, so having heard nothing but silence I called them, and now they say I should have it back by this time next week. I think they have had my car for 5 of the last 7 weeks now. Not impressed.
 
#68 ·
I finally heard from them again. When they pulled it apart the only thing they noticed was that one cylinder was cleaner than the rest, so they are assuming that is where the leak was. They put it all together again and took it for a test drive, but the check engine light came on! So I still don't have it back.

I am leaving on vacation tomorrow (not driving!), so I won't see it for another 4 weeks. Hopefully they'll have it working by then ...
 
#71 ·
Back from vacation, got the car back yesterday. They said the check engine light was just a loose connector, and all other testing failed to reproduce any of the former symptoms, so they think it is finally fixed. On my short drive yesterday it behaved itself, which is an improvement to last time I drove it, so I hope they are right this time!
 
#72 ·
What did they end up doing to it? Did they replace the HGs? Did they find anything abnormal? Or did they just take the heads off and put them back together?
 
#73 ·
Yes, they did the full head gasket replacement job, with new gaskets and heads planed and inspected for cracks. From what they said, it sounds like what psygnal11 reported, with no obvious signs of head gasket breach, but on very close inspection they found one cylinder slightly cleaner than the rest, plus very slight discolouration on the adjacent gasket.
 
#74 ·
The gift that keeps on giving: now I have oil patches in the driveway, about 8-inches in size. There were none there before the car returned, and no one else parks there. And they are at work too! It seems to be coming from somewhere up front.

I called the dealer and they said bring it in any time, so I dropped it off this morning before they were open. When I went back after work the door was still locked and there was a sign saying "service department closed". Oh dear. I went around to sales and found the manager, he told me the service manager is sick and won't be back before next week.

He also said they did have a tech look at it quickly, and it is "coming from the water pump", but I am not sure that he knows what he is talking about. I would find it hard to believe that this is not related to the work they just did.

Anyway, he then went into service and grabbed my key (it had no tag on it, but he knows it on sight now), and I went home. But I'll be back! Maybe they'll have a reserved parking space for me soon ...
 
#75 ·
Interesting... there are no oil passages in the water pump. Although that said, there are several spots above and around the water pump where oil passes through the rear cover from the block that are sealed with o-rings... if an o-ring were missed, the wrong o-ring was used, or if the old o-rings were installed (FSM requires new o-rings when pulling the chain cover), it's possible for a oil leak to develop. Some of these areas sit right above the water pump, so an oil leak from that area could drip onto the paper water pump gasket (that sits between the rear cover and block) making it seem to the untrained tech below that the oil is coming from the water pump. However, this probably would have been evident the day you got it back.

In any event, it sounds like you have oil leaking somewhere behind the rear chain cover; my shot-in-the-dark guess is that when reinstalling the rear cover, the tech either didn't properly degrease/clean the mating surfaces between the rear cover and block/heads and/or applied too small of a bead of RTV. This part of the job is not very forgiving, and there are many opportunities for error for someone who isn't paying attention.

Unfortunately, this would mean they're going to have to pull the timing components and redo the whole thing, but fortunately, they don't have to pull the engine to do so; they can simply remove the bumper as shown in your earlier photo... it shouldn't be more than a 4-5 hour job, but it may need to sit for another day or two to allow the RTV to properly cure.

I would get on the phone with Subaru of Canada ASAP. For your issue to have been going on this long is a travesty, and it reeks of incompetence or ignorance at this shop.
 
#77 ·
I got a call from the dealer yesterday and got some more info from them. Apparently it is leaking oil from the water pump weep hole. They did install a new water pump during the head gasket job, and now believe that it is faulty and plan to replace it. But they cannot do it before next Thu. So in the mean time they gave me 4 quarts of oil and said to keep an eye on the level!

As for getting Subaru Canada involved, I hear you, but I am reluctant to rock the boat while they are being helpful. Bear in mind that I bought the car in Nov 2012, and the extended warranty expired around the end of May this year (based on mileage). The fact that they are not giving me any grief and are working to make it right - all on their dime - is about all I can ask at this point.
 
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